Interview #11 Julieta Duvall – Time Advocacy: No Commitments, Just Experiments

Summary: In this episode, Rick Barron interviews Julieta Duvall, a time advocate who shares her journey of redefining time as a resource rather than a commodity. Julieta discusses her transition from traditional homeschooling to unschooling, emphasizing the importance of letting go of societal expectations and commitments that do not align with personal values. 

She highlights the significance of trusting oneself and one's children in the learning process, and the freedom that comes with embracing mistakes and experimenting with life. The conversation also touches on the resources available for unschooling and the family's motto of 'no commitments, just experiments.' In this conversation, Julieta Duvall shares her insights on flexibility, family values, and the impact of unschooling on children. 

She emphasizes the importance of reevaluating parental expectations and the power of experimentation in personal growth. Julieta advocates for time management and living life to the fullest, encouraging listeners to dream big while being mindful of their time and values. 

Chapters 

00:00 Introduction to Time Advocacy 

02:32 Defining Time Advocacy 

05:34 The Journey of Letting Go 

11:06 Exploring Unschooling 

18:17 Transitioning to Unschooling 

20:50 Lessons Learned Through Unschooling 

23:32 Resources for Unschooling 

26:43 Family Motto: No Commitments, Just Experiments 

30:34 Deconditioning from External Input 

32:40 Redefining Flexibility and Family Values 

35:25 Reevaluating Parental Expectations 

38:42 The Impact of Unschooling on Children 

47:12 Embracing the Power of Experimentation 

52:16 Advocating for Time and Personal Values 

01:03:07 Living Life to the Fullest 

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Transcript

Transcript, Mar. 12, 2025

Rick Barron (00:01.652)

Hi everyone, I am Rick Barron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life, I Swear. My guest today is Julieta Duvall. She is a self-described timed advocate who redefines time as a resource, not a commodity. Drawing from her aviation career and experience as a unschooling mom, she's learned to let go of obligations, misaligned with her values. 

Her family's motto, no commitments just experiments, and we'll get into that. 

We'll discuss the art of letting go, experimenting with what truly matters and living on your own terms. Join me as I have my conversation with Julieta Duvall. 

Julieta, welcome to the show.

Julieta Duvall (00:49.346)

Hi, Rick. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Rick Barron (00:52.458)

I've been looking forward to this for quite a while. Gosh. So, if you would, could you just kind of do a broad brushstroke per se of your background and let the audience know who you are and what you've been doing in life?

Julieta Duvall (00:54.966)

Yeah, hi everyone. So, my name is Julieta. I grew up in Mexico and I moved to Michigan when I was roughly about 19 to 20 years old. And then I worked at a community center at a pool at the pool and it was it was such a fun job because we I laughed every day and I never realized how important that is. 

And then through life I got a job at an airline, was the only Spanish speaker on the midnight shift, right? So I would, whenever you called and you pushed to for Spanish, I would answer the phone call and I would make the reservations. And that started my career in aviation. Became a flight attendant and I now have been flying for 20 years. I went back to school during my aviation career. 

I got a bachelor's degree because I thought I wanted to leave aviation, but it turns out I didn't because I value flexibility, which really came about during COVID when we started homeschooling and quickly transitioned into unschooling. So. in a nutshell, that's it, 20 years in aviation. I never really had a regular nine to five job and I have enjoyed life in a very different way ever since.

Rick Barron (02:32.81)

Okay, that's great. Now our topic today is wide open because I started doing research on being a time advocate. And then one thing led to another. thought, well, this is a conversation that might go on for several hours. But for the audience, perhaps if you could define the term time advocate, how did you get into this? What was the, the pull into, I guess, embracing this topic, if you will.

Julieta Duvall (03:05.582)

Yes, it's such a big answer. It's such a great question and a big answer. But in the short version of it, it really started when we transitioned into traditional homeschooling. When I first started in this journey back in 2020, I spent a lot of money and a lot of time trying to do all the things. I was signing up for all the co-ops that I could for my kids. My kids are now 11 and 5.

Back then there were six and like two, you know, and I sign up for all the things, all the events, all the classes, everything. I wanted to make sure that we were not missing anything, but that what we were missing and letting go was our sanity. So, at that point I had to pull back and I basically like cancel all of those commitments and really started to evaluating what each commitment brought back to our family. 

Like because we were investing time and money into it, but what we were getting from that commitment was really adding to our family life. And that's when I really started valuing our time and making sure that the commitments, the return on investment, you your ROI on our energy and our money, that was really equal. We were giving something to someone by, you know.

And that's what it's really started valuing our time and making sure that the commitment, the return on investment, you your ROI on our energy and our money, that was really equal. We weren't giving something to someone by, you know, paying for our activities. Paying for our activities or being there and supporting them. But I wanted to make sure that we were also fulfilled and satisfied at the end of that experience. And it was a very kind of slow process in the sense of I wanted to do it all. And I was like, you can do a lot of things, but you cannot do all of them. 

So, I wanted to make sure I started really pinpointing. Which ones were given us something, how we felt afterwards. And I would do a check-in with myself. And like, so it took us an hour to prepare, we drove for 30 minutes. How was the experience? Was it worth it for everyone? And if that was a quick yes, I would save that. And then I would make sure that the next time that we went, remember I'm like, okay, this was a good experience, so we can do it again. And that's kind of how we live our life. I do an ROI on every activity nowadays.

Rick Barron (05:04.01)

So, when you started doing this Instead you were signing up for everything Was it for the benefit of your children? For you? Or was it a combination of both?

Julieta Duvall (05:37.325)

That is so fascinating that you mentioned that. I was working from an external input. I was working from the point of view that I wanted to be seen as a good homeschool mom. I wanted to be seen as a good parent because that is what I'm supposed to be. 

And don't get me wrong, I always try to be a good parent, but I really was doing my work and choosing our activities to make sure that I fit that model of society that's saying, she's a good parent because she does all the things. And then I started realizing that the people that I was trying to please, A, they didn't know me and B, I didn't know them. So, and I wasn't getting anything from them, but just this imaginary version of, you're a great parent, Julia. You're such a good mom because you do all the things.

In that moment, which I shifted a little bit to make sure that we were feeling OK from an internal, an internal, a sacral response. You know, like if I if it felt good for me, it would also feel good for the rest of my family. And I started shifting to I needed to make sure that my kids were OK and that I was OK doing all the things, regardless whether people thought I was good or bad.

Which I hope they don't because I really, you know, I was, yeah, I was really working from external input and I had to shift to make sure to redefine what I thought was good, how we see our values, what our values were and build that foundation. And from that foundation now, that's kind of where we work from nowadays.

Rick Barron (07:26.257)

Yeah, I think from the external prism, if you will, you felt like perhaps sometimes you were on in the spotlight, so to speak. And I think in some degree, I think that people who may look at what you were doing and thinking, she's not a good mom, but they don't understand…

Julieta Duvall (07:35.554)

Yes, yes.

Rick Barron (07:48.654)

…what your world entails versus what their world entails. So, when you would go back and do a sanity check, if you will, if this was a good investment from your experience, what did you find? Was it the kids that would say, you know, I'm not getting anything out of this. 

Or was it a combination of you or who was giving the most, I guess, direction that to tell you if my kids say they don't like it, I'm gonna have to make some adjustments here.

Julieta Duvall (08:25.206)

I think it was mostly; it was mostly how we were able to move within the within the activity. So there's in the homeschool world, there's a lot of activities that have a specific outcome, and I think in overall all activities, not just a homeschool world, but if it was a specific outcome and then we weren't able to explore. Other options, for example, my biggest example is we took a trip to Belize.

In the world, in the homeschool world, there's something that's called world schooling and that's people that travel and we experiment through the world. And in this world schooling hub in Belize, we had different activities and we had an activity that was super cool. We were able to experience the Garifuna kitchen, which is part of their culture. And a beautiful lady showed us how to do a fish soup. We mashed the plantains. We broke the coconut. You know, we made it.

We build the soup how it was and then they cooked it and then we ate it. But within this experience, not everyone was interested in smashing the plantains and not everyone was interested in doing the coconuts. And for us, at least for my family, I really value the ability to move easier within that flow. 

Like if my kids weren't interested in the coconut right away, that they were able to feel free to say, you know what, I think I wanna do the plantains right now. Can I come back to the coconut? And everyone being okay with that. And I really value that experience. 

So, whenever we were able to move in and out of how we were interested in enjoying that particular experience, to me that felt good. And to us that was worth it because we got what we needed in that moment. 

We weren't pushed to do something that we weren't ready for and everyone being okay with that. And I really value that experience so whenever we were able to move even out of how we were interested in enjoying that particular experience, to me that felt good. 

And to us that we weren't kind of shame into saying, you weren't ready to smash the coconut just right now that it's not how you're supposed to do it. So, we were able to have freedom to enjoy what we needed in that moment and come back if we wanted to. Right. 

And that is really what mastery comes came up for us, because you come back to that same experience, maybe with something else that you learn from smashing the plantains before the coconuts or something. So that really is ability to flow as you need to and on your own timeline. That's really my marker. If that, if we have that ability, to me, that is a space that we are, that is worth it for us to go back to.

Rick Barron (11:06.633)

Yeah, so it from what you just described, I guess there's a lot of lessons that can be learned there. And I think the one that kind of stuck out the most to me was when, you know, a mistake was made. And I think you want to instill in your children that life will never be perfect. There are going to be those moments where things are going just super. And then there are going to be those moments where why do I feel I need to hide out because I made a mistake. 

It's OK to make a mistake and sometimes when you make a mistake you learn more from that experience. And I think that's what some people miss. Now when it comes to unschooling. Is there a certain grade level. And I'm just picking out of thin air here from the 5th grade to the 10th grade and then when you reach high school and then you go into the real world, so to speak, you're going to go to a real high school. Is there a beginning or an end or how does this work?

Julieta Duvall (12:08.678)

It's a great, yes, it's, it's such a good question. It really is though, because unschooling technically like the definition of it is just technically life without school. If you want to break it down to its bare bones. And it came out in the seventies because a gentleman by the name of John Holt, he was an educator. So, he just noticed the kids learn differently when they were given the ability to explore on its own terms. 

So, he just came to the term without school and the rigidity of curriculum by grade levels. The way I see it also, it's also freedom of education and it's not linear. So, it's really, when you have first, second, third, fourth grade and there's like this linear aspect of the curriculum as far as like language arts and math, the way we see it is non-linear, but it is included within the life that we live. 

So, when we go to the grocery store, we have the best time because we go at night. We go at night usually around 7 p.m. and then we go through the aisles. It's usually best to have a list. I like to have a list to go to the grocery store, but this is an experience that we all enjoy. So, we go through the aisles. We kind of already know what we need. And then we look at the prices. We look at the ingredients. You know, we look at the grams. 

So, all of those lessons are included in that experience, but they are from different grade levels, you could say. Some of them are from high school, some of them are from first grade, and some of them are from fifth grade. So, it's really life in that experience and all of them. But there are different goals, and that's based on the different families' needs. So, some people really want to do the college, you know, the college experience. So then at that point, you work with your child, life, aim, that experience, and all of them. 

But there are different goals, and that's based on different families' needs to see how you can get there and how you can facilitate that so they can have the most chances of success. And like you said, it really is about building up, not necessarily by saying, you made a mistake, but rather what was learned from that and then use that as a foundation to go up to the next level. 

And at that point, there's like, you know, and I think some of the biggest things that we use in real life have come from mistakes like, and at that point there's like, you know, and I think some of the biggest things that we use in real life have some mistakes like, crazy glue.

I think it came from it used to be it was used to do surgeries first I think and then he got he got used to you know glue other things so things do happen from the mistakes but when we learn to Embrace them and not really feel shameful about them Then he like takes us on to the next level. So I'm schooling to really is very individualized and it's sometimes a lot of work because what we can facilitate as a family, it may not be available. So, there's a lot of search, finding the right people, know, but it is just really a journey of experiencing and finding out what works for you and for your family. 

Rick Barron (15:13.427)

So, for the unschooling process, and again, I don't know that much about that world, so I'm asking some questions that maybe are obvious, but is there like a certification issuing if you will like to say let's say for example your children go from the unschooling process up to high school and They say okay now I want to go to high school. 

Could the high school come back and say well, you did on schooling that doesn't qualify for you to get into high school now or even the say you went up even through high school could a college administration say Well, I know you did the unschooling but for our curriculum that doesn't fit in so you can't come into this school.

Julieta Duvall (16:02.508)

Yeah, it really is. So, unschooling is technically the bigger term is homeschooling and then unschooling is just a way of homeschooling. But within the unschooling, you're still bound by the laws of homeschooling, which from whatever state you're in. So even for example, for example, the state of Pennsylvania needs you to register and to work with like a social, not a social worker, but rather someone that kind of goes, knows your process. So, within the unschooling lifestyle and way of education, you still get to meet all the requirements of teaching, reading, science, history, all of the required subjects, but you just get to do them in a different way. 

And then, you follow the requirements from your homeschool state as to how you can get a high school diploma and the college that you want to go to also have different requirements for homeschool students. So, you technically really fall under the homeschooling umbrella, but it's just we just do it a little bit different. But there are always options for sure.

Rick Barron (17:08.468)

So, okay, so thank you. So, is the standard ubiquitous across the United States or does each state have a certain set of rules?

Julieta Duvall (17:22.508)

Yes, yes, no, every state has its own set of rules. There are some states that are easier to homeschool and there are some states that have a little more requirements or they have registration. So, the first question whenever someone wants to transition into home education, alternative home education, it is to know the state that you're in because truancy, if you just stop attending school and you don't show up, there are legal aspects to it all. So, it's still, we are still working within the legal system and the boundaries of the state that people live in for sure. Yes, that's always important to know.

Rick Barron (18:04.852)

Good. Now, did you start this process with your children immediately or did you have them go to a regular school and then say, we're going to take a different route now. We're going to do the unschooling process.

Julieta Duvall (18:17.206)

Yes, they did start it in school actually. My oldest son spent about three, close to four years at a Montessori school. And I think I felt like I always lean more towards the self-directed education and that's why we went with a Montessori setup because we liked the idea of, know, Maria Montessori used to say, what the hand does, the mind remembers and something like that. 

So, we always liked that idea of a more nature involved way of education, know, learning from nature, real life skills and all of that. And during COVID, really, we went into the pandemic with online school, but my son was really young. He was finishing up kindergarten and going into first grade. So, expecting a person that is really, that needs a lot of movement to sit on the computer and to do all the work just didn't feel fair for him. And I was always they need to want a movement to be excited about the idea of homeschooling and world schooling, which is traveling with them and learning from experience. And, you know, I picture myself going to the Coliseum and eating gelato and talking about the Roman Empire. 

I had all these visions, but I truly was a little scared to go against the mainstream of just going to school and doing the all the things, the sports, all the activities and we did that, you know, prior to 2020, my son was in Chinese classes from the time he was 10 months old. I was the full definition of a tiger mom. Yes, yes. It's been a long journey. It's been a long journey, but I was the full definition of a tiger mom. And then 2020 gave us a different perspective. And I pulled my career in aviation as to...  and we did that prior to 2020. My son was in Chinese classes from the time he was from the school. I was the full definition of a tiger mom.

Living in a different way and then kind of mixed that with like homeschooling unschooling and kind of how we got to this point So it's been a pretty fun journey not always easy, but good Mm-hmm

Rick Barron (20:20.17)

In the time, oh, I can imagine in the time that you've been taking this journey, as you put it, what have you learned about yourself and going through this process? You know, like never would have thought I would do this, but having gone through this process, these are some things I've learned that I didn't think I knew, I have educated myself to something that I never would have thought across my path.

Julieta Duvall (20:50.446)

There are so many questions and so many answers to that. But I think one of the biggest one is that I learned to trust my children and I learned that I could also be trusted when I was a child and that my parents did the best they could with what they had.

It's so deep sometimes because there has been a lot of healing in the last couple of years. It all started, our homeschooling journey started. It was rough because I had a specific idea of what it was supposed to be. And I did not take my child into consideration whether he wanted to do math at 11 o'clock in the morning. I just said, this is the way it's supposed to go and this is what we're gonna do.

And I never, if it didn't feel right because I wasn't trusting myself and I wasn't trusting him. But I didn't know how else to do it. And I started seeking resources and that's when I came to human design and I found out that I could also trust myself, that my intuition and what my body was telling me that I could follow that and that I was able to pivot.

And that I was able to pivot, that I could give myself the permission to pivot if it didn't feel right anymore. And then I could also extend that grace to my children for them to say, you know what, I don't think I'm ready to, I don't think I want to go to karate anymore, martial arts. My son has been in martial arts since he was three years old, he's 11 now. he finally said, you know, I think I'm ready to take a break. 

I'm going to-that I could give myself the permission to pivot if it didn't feel right anymore. And that I could also extend that grace to my children for them to say, you know what, I don't think I'm ready to, I don't think I wanna go to do karate anymore, martial arts. My son has been in martial arts since he was three years old, he's 11 now. And he finally said, you know, I think I'm ready to take a break. I'm going to concentrate on parkour which is a different activity, but still kind of falls under like little bit like martial arts. And I never really thought I could say, yeah, okay, let's give that a try and let's see how that works. 

I think in a different world, I would say absolutely not. You must continue and follow your journey until you achieve your black belt and then you can pivot, which is something that my mom would say. She would always say like, you have to finish this. 

The ability to pivot you and your journey until you achieve your black belt and then you can pivot which is something that my mom would say she would always say like you have to finish this.

When things are not fully done was a big one. I never thought I could give myself permission because it gave me so much grief over my lifetime too. I felt guilty all the time for not finishing up certain projects. And nowadays I'm like, this is so good. I think I got what I needed out of the project and I am ready to pivot. And giving myself that permission and extending that to my children has been the biggest growth that I have seen so far.

Finishing out certain projects. And nowadays I'm like, this is so good. I think I got what I needed out of the project and I'm ready to pivot. And giving myself that permission and extending that to my children has been the biggest.

Rick Barron (23:15.86)

Yeah, because the stop half stream you would then never know what could have been had you stuck it out. When you went into unschooling and did you have any resources that you can go to for people to say, okay, you want to do unschooling, okay, here's how the process works. Here's what you might expect to see happen. Was this something you just dove into right away on your own?

Julieta Duvall (23:32.462)

Since our journey began, there weren't a lot of resources or maybe they were they were not available to me like I didn't know they existed and a friend of mine. She suggested when I told her my vision of world school and you know my Italian vision of being in Rome, she said, you want to do world schooling. I said what does that have that as a name and she's like yeah, so she recommended the book by Julie Bogart.

My goodness, I lost the name something learner. I have to I'm going to look it up and I'm going to. I'm going to send it to you so it can be added if the brave learning. That's what it's called. The Brave Learner by Julie Bovert. It's a great book and she explains the different types of how to do home education and in there she put self-directed education or on schooling and I was like this is it. This is how I want to do life with my children. I want to be in partnership with them. I didn't wanna be fighting this control, this power person over them because it's their life. Ultimately, I learned not to, like what wasn't given to me, I was trying to do, to give to them. And I wasn't really taking into consideration that they are their own person. They didn't grow up with me, they didn't need what I needed. So, it's just very different.

But the Brave Learner was a great starting point. And then I went on to different authors like John Holt, Peter Gray. I went on to different people like Dana Martin. And it is worth noting that the way I learned best is from people. Like I can tell you that I've learned many different things from different people. And the philosophy of unschooling, very, it's good. 

But I had a hard time putting it into practicality. How to bring it into life, how to trust my children because on the day-to-day life, it was very chaotic. I'm like, how am I supposed to do this without feeling like I'm supposed to take control over this household? And that's when my work in human design came about a little bit and that kind of helped me put it all together. But there are a lot of resources. So, feel like home education, day to day life, it was very chaotic. I'm like, how am I supposed to do this?

Julieta Duvall (26:19.83)

Alternative home education has a pre-COVID area and the post-COVID area, which is where we are at now, so many people are doing amazing work on sharing with people that it's okay to do it differently and it's okay to trust yourself and trust your children. And it's so pretty cool seeing that though, that the transformation that happens within the lives of families is pretty cool.

Rick Barron (26:44.236)

That's great to hear. I want to go back to the introduction where it called out about your family motto, no commitments, just experiments. Can you expand on that? How did this come about? I I love that.

Julieta Duvall (27:01.26)

Yes, it was such a beautiful moment when I finally allowed myself to pivot and really that it is no commitments. It's just the experiment of what we're doing right now. And then there's the learning that comes from it. And is there a next step that we could go to? Do we want to go into the next step? And if the answer is no, there is no shame. There is no guilt for saying no, that isn't what we want to do right now and then we just move on to the next step. It's a little hard sometimes because we have been, know, the narrative is that you have to push through all of the good and the bad if you want to succeed. And...

That could be right, right? Like if you're an athlete, there are going to be bad days where you are either hurt or in pain or too hungry or just too tired and too sleepy. But overall, the goal, the desire for you to accomplish something is gonna carry you through those days. 

But sometimes you have activities that truly in your gut, in your stomach, like in the most primal instinct that we have as human beings, that saying this is not for you. And to listen to that and to allow yourself to pivot, that has been the biggest thing for us. So, it really started as a permission to myself to pivot as a person because whenever I would talk to people at work, they're like, Julieta, what are you into right now? And I would say something and I literally, and I know I have a lot of stuff going on, but they all relate in one way or another. But people would tell, I would tell them what was happening in my life. And they're like, I'm just exhausted by listening to you woman. Like I just don't even know how you do it. And I'm like, well, I just do. But what I have learned is that whenever I'm excited about a project, it really expands my energy to go ahead and do something else that relates to it and adds to it. 

So, the no commitment, just experiments. It really is just about that too. Making sure that whatever is on my plate makes me excited and everyone is excited about it. And at the end of the day that we feel satisfied with how the day went. And that is just such a beautiful feeling because I really think that's how everyone should go. Whenever you go to bed, you're like, my goodness, I had the best day. And you just cannot wait for the one that's coming after that.

Rick Barron (29:37.768)

I guess this kind of goes back then to the title itself, being a time advocate, you know, having quality of time, but also enjoying that quality of time. Because my wife and I have done numerous things that one day we did various, task, if you will. And throughout the day, I thought, wow, we're doing this and we're doing this. And at the end of the day, I look back on what we had accomplished. I thought, you know what? Throw all of this one moment. I was having a lot of fun. It was just very spontaneous. It wasn't like, gosh, now I got to do this. It's just one thing fell into another. So I guess for me, I'm getting a better sense now when you say time. advocate. Now there was a term that we had discussed when we first met. It was called deconditioning from external input. Fascinating term. What does that entail? What does that mean?

Julieta Duvall (29:42.583)

Yes. For what I, how I have used it is that I put all the sentences, you know, they say, you should be doing X, Y, or Z. You should be X, Y, or Z. And then I was pondering on it, should I be doing X, Y, or Z? Let me see if I can think of a quick example here.

The school system really goes if going back to that or perhaps my nine to five. Should I have a nine to five job? For example, should my kids go to school? And the answer is not coming from the answer from the outside world would be probably yes. It depends who you talk to. Sure, you should have a nine to five because he gives you routine. Your kids should go to school because they learn something.

So, but then what I turn it into for the deconditioning aspect of it's like, what works for us? What works? How do we learn? Is my child a better, will my child benefit from being in the school? And some people do actually. I happen to be one of those people. I benefit a lot from structure. But some people are meant to be more in the flow. So what I think people, what people think I should be doing, I just ask myself, is that true for myself? Should my children be in school? Is that the best thing for them? And that really is what it's all about. Is that the best thing for me? Should I have a nine to five? And the answer truly is no. For me, it is an absolutely no. 

Because I have lived in a world that I have very long days, but I also have a lot of flexibility. So, to me, my value of flexibility does not answer to that you should have a nine to five. That doesn't work for me. So now I take all of that. When I think we should be doing something, I stop for a second and I think to myself, so why is it that I'm taking that in? And...

Is that really true for us? Does that add to our value of using our time together as a family in the best way possible? Is that true? And then if it doesn't, I really just go down the rabbit hole of going backwards. I really take it down now to my childhood, to the way I experienced life in Mexico and what my parents, what my parents said I should be doing, I should be doing, which was go to go to school, you know, get a good career, find a stable job, know, value stability, which I do. 

But I'm like, my parents' advice came from their own experience. And I just took it, right? I didn't know any better, so I just took it and I ran with it. And then I was applying that also to my child. That's how I became the Tiger Mom in my own terms because I was taking that from somebody else and now I'm like, that the kind of mom that I want to be? And the answer, most of it sometimes is no, sometimes is yes, but maybe it's like from a different angle. But what I want to connect, I want to connect with my children and I want us to form our values from our own experience and what feels good to us from the most instinct, know from your body reaction like if you have a sacral. Yes, that feels so good.

 Then that's what I want to be doing right because that keeps me happy. It makes me happy It makes me a better person and honestly. My days I have to have like three hours of creative work before I wake up before everyone else To be able to do that because I know that that makes me a better human being believe me It makes me a better human being when I am satisfied and the condition that we have to go through as to learning takes eight hours a day and you still have to do all the homework and all the after school activities. 

It's just thinking about is that really true? Does that really work for you? And if he doesn't, then you get to reframe your own your own values and then you go from there, right? And it's not it's it's OK if they work for somebody else. And it's OK if those ones work for you at that point, too.

Julieta Duvall (35:25.866)

It's just making sure that you are pondering on to, this is what I, what people say I should believe and do I believe that? Do I want to continue on that belief? And the answer is yes, that's okay. It's all good. It's just making sure that it comes from you and not from somebody else.

Rick Barron (35:43.314)

Right. A couple of points. I, like you, I love getting up early in the morning because for me that's kind of a, a quiet time. My, my own little cubby hole, so to speak of time. And I love the mornings. So, it gives me time to read my book. mean, I'm, love reading, but you had a good thought there about the value of time for yourself because I know working in high tech, my wife, did very well and she got to a point where she became a senior director. And I once asked her, did you ever think maybe wanting to be a VP, you know, I said, and she looked at me and said, look, look at the time I spent being a senior director. 

You see me take trips almost like every other week. You see me bringing work home almost every night. If I was a VP, she said, you probably won't even see me. Is it, that what you want? I well, well, no, is it? And she said, look, to me, having a good salary so we could have a good life is great, but not to the point of sacrificing the valuable time we could have with one another. It's just not worth it because she had seen so many people take that route only to, you know, fall on their faces. Like, gosh, you know it.

Julieta Duvall (37:01.505)

Your whole life. Yes.

Julieta Duvall (37:16.734)

And that is so beautiful because she knew from her own values what she valued, which is time to time with you, and she knew that she didn't want to go there, and that was okay for her. Other people might have said, oh yeah, I think I want to do that, and then maybe gotten to that point and said, you know what, I don't think this is what I want, so I'm just going to go ahead and give myself the permission to pivot. 

But those are different, but they both come from that internal knowing of what's important to you. And it also, you know, highlights how everyone values different things and none of them are better or worse, it's just what matters to you. And that is just so beautiful to have that awareness because then you're working, you're seeking, you're doing your life according to what matters to you and what makes you happy. And ultimately, I think that's what this life is all about. You should be happy.

Rick Barron (38:12.744)

Yeah, it's, really comes down to that. think people are always in such a rush to get from here to here. And it's like, you got to slow down, you know? And I mean, my wife and I are both retired now, but I find myself busier than I was when I was working. So, I really enjoy. So very briefly, going back to the, unschooling, have you seen a difference in your children and how they are looking at, I don't know, life?

Julieta Duvall (38:29.673)

Yes.

Rick Barron (38:42.514)

If you will, I mean, do you see a difference if like, have they gone to regular school versus what you're doing? Have you detected a difference in their demeanor, their, their attitudes, their outlook on life?

Julieta Duvall (38:55.01)

Yes, I do actually. I do and it's very it's very unique in the sense that they are not afraid to speak their needs and I really value that. They are very in tune with their bodies and it's something that we continue to work on like when you want to go to the bathroom, you go to the bathroom. You know it's a very in tune when you're hungry you eat. I don't have restrictions on food as what they can or cannot have what's in the house is always available for everyone at any time of the day. 

And that I took from aviation right in aviation industry. My flights could be in different time zones. I was always in different countries. I always had to eat whenever I could find food. So, I learned to almost disassociate from my body per se because I knew that if I didn't eat in that particular moment, it would be seven hours before I could eat again.

So even though was hungry, I wasn't hungry, I made myself eat because I knew what was coming that I had to work or whatever. And then I would eat breakfast when it was like lunchtime. I would eat dinner when it was breakfast. It was just because I was always in different time zones. So that really wasn't hard for me. So, I never really been like breakfast, lunch and dinner. But I know that's difficult for some people sometimes.

But really the connection that I see with our bodies is really, really beautiful for them to be able to say, I am tired and I'm just gonna walk myself to bed, know, do brush my teeth, do my nightly routine and go to bed. It is really, really valuable. 

It makes me happy to see that their connection, it's like, it's there because I had so many stomach issues from being in the industry from not being connected to my body. And as we connect with our body, then we are easier, it's easier for us to learn when we are in full alignment with our body, right? So that is one thing that I noticed the most. My oldest, yesterday, I was going on a tangent about, you know, we check in. So, we do, I do like quarterly check-ins with them.

Julieta Duvall (41:19.232)  

Like, so this is what we're doing. He now wants to go back to horseback riding. So we're in the process of searching for a person and all that stuff. But I said, I just want you to know that if you're not happy with this life, can always, we can always look for different ways. Is that something that you want to do? And he's like, mommy, what you have is anxiety. And I was like, yes, fear of the future.

So, I love that they have the ability to be open and to say what's in their mind because they're actually pretty wise. If you really have a conversation with a child, they have the most beautiful outlook on life. And they have in the past, I wrote a post that their kids are greatest cosmic teachers. They are so beautiful. Whenever you talk to a passenger, whenever I talk to a passenger that's a child, they are so cool.

They are the coolest tiny humans and my children have the ability to speak their mind without feeling like they have to, you know, it's just, they are just part of the conversation and they are part of this family and they are, their decision or their thoughts are also part in the decision making of our family. whenever we choose a trip, whenever we go somewhere, everyone's in the decision, in the decision-making process.

Julieta Duvall (42:42.974)

It doesn't always meet everyone's needs sometimes, but that is part of being within a community. So sometimes someone's needs get met later than, you know, some of them are met sooner than later, but we all work together. And I really, that is, yeah, I think that's some of the things that I see in them. Their ability to say, I want to learn this and research.

And then I come in and I'm like, OK, what else can we do? These are the choices. Do you want to hire a tutor? Like I said, my son took Chinese classes since he was 10 months old. Like I said, I was a Tiger mom, so here I am. But now he's saying, I think I want to take Chinese again. He downloaded Duolingo on his own and he started going through the app. And I said, well, Duolingo is great, but I used it for Italian and Portuguese.

And I'm like, there were some mistakes. So let's just be careful. Would you like to hire a tutor? Would you like me to find you a class? He's like, let me think about it. I said, OK, well, on a scale from one to 10, where is the need for a tutor at this point? He said a five. I said, OK, so let me look and let me find some resources for you. And then we'll go from there. He's like, OK, that sounds good. So it's really is this communication process, this journey of finding out what works for you.

And to me, that is the most beautiful thing because as a parent, we feel the burden of wanting to do everything for our child, for our children, but often without taking them into consideration as to how they need some things done. So I'm not doing all the, I'm doing the heavy lifting, right? 

I'm doing the work of the adult. I'm the one paying, I'm the one making the appointments, I'm the one figuring out the schedule, but I'm really just facilitating what they need in that moment. And having him telling me my need of a tutor right now, it's a five, then I think, then I kind of know what my timeline is. If he would have told me, I'm ready to go to China and, you know, do whatever. I'm like, okay, well, that would probably have to wait. Like, we're just not there yet, but let me find out how I can get there. 

Rick Barron (45:09.768)

Now I think children are so perceptive, curious, you know, and their lives have not been tarnished by real life. So, they have a lot of innocence in them. very briefly, we had a family that lived next door to us and a mother and father with four girls. And we have a pool. So, as they were getting older, we let them come over to learn how to swim.

Rick Barron (45:40.394)

And the oldest one was always reading a book and she was always asking me questions about, you know, things in general. And, one day in in the, our newspaper, there was this big puzzle of trying to find all the various types of animals. So, I took the page over to their house, knocked on the door, their mother answered and said, look, I have this puzzle.

I'd like to have your daughter figure out if she can find all the animals on this page. I'll make her pull tickets so she can come over during the summer and use the pull anytime she wants. And she smiles. OK, I think she'll like this. And about three hours go by. I hear a knock at the door. I open the door and there's the neighbor's daughter. I did it. So immediately I had to make the tickets on my computer. I gave her the tickets. Here you go. And then one hot July, she came over with her sisters. They each had the ticket.

Julieta Duvall (46:51.436)

I love that. I love that so much. Yes, they're super cool though. Kids are super cool though and they have so much to teach us. Mm-hmm. That we give them credit for it. Yes, yes, yes, indeed.

Rick Barron (46:55.538)

Yeah, but they're yeah, they're a lot smarter than we think they are.

Rick Barron (47:04.404)

So, tell me about the power of experimentation. I thought that was kind of a neat term that you called out to me.

Julieta Duvall (47:12.61)

Yeah, I mean the power of experimentation, I think it again goes back to my multi-passionate energy and my healing really from not feeling guilty from wanting to try different things. I really think there's a lot of good that comes out from trying things and to recognizing when something fails, not for the failure per se, but rather for the learning to experiment with new things, it allows us to see if we like it or not, and if we wanna move forward or not, you know? 

And I think there's just so much value in that. You like I said, just a couple of days ago when we talked about my podcast, a version that the audio didn't come out really well, I mean, it was a really, really powerful experience for me to know that.

I need to experiment a little bit more with sound and to be better at it. And that was that, but it was a learning experience, right? And I was like, okay, I didn't go off the deep end like I normally would in the past, thinking that that was the end of it. But it was just, it's just nice for us to see that and to allow for that for our children to experiment too.

In our house, my youngest son, he's all into science and he's a huge, I have jars of, jars and jars of things, you know. I have wood that apparently are new species of wood that are coming out and we have corners of crystals and we have a turtle that was hatching and he created ,the ecosystem for the turtle and it was a fake turtle. It's a, you know, from one of those eggs I just put in water, but he watched it. You know, he has a fish tank and the experimentation that has been through that because we have gone through about seven or eight fish at this point. Yes, they are, I knew nothing about fish before and we started, this journey about, I don't know, close to a year ago, but the first one died within the, you know, a day or two and he had named them. 

So, he went through the loss of his fish and then the second fish, he named them nothing, he said, because I'm afraid, yes, his name was nothing because he was afraid that he was going to die and he didn't want to be attached. So, it was so interesting how he felt the loss of the first one and realized how it hurt and didn't want to be attached to the second one. So, we experimented with the second one, we buried them, and then we got a tank, a little one, then we got a bigger one. But without that model of experimentation and support, I don't know that we would have made it this far.

He's five, almost six, and he wakes up, comes down the stairs, and the first thing he does is it turns the light on for his fish. He feeds them, and he says good morning, and then he goes on to his day. But it is in him to do that, right? I do not remember to feed fish. I mean, I barely remember what I did yesterday, right? So, I don't have to go after him and say, did you feed the fish?

Or I'm not going to do this because I don't want to take care of him. He does all of it along with my husband, who's been really, really good about learning and helping him clean the tank because they're a lot of work. I never knew. I never knew how involved a fish tank is. So this experimentation process, it is just allows to go into the into the next step. And so much of it, we want to be good at the first time.

Rick Barron (51:05.092)

yes.

Julieta Duvall (51:21.088)

And if we're not good, then we're moved away from it. We're like, we're just not good. So, we're just going to move away from it. And there's so much value on the on the other side. Right. Like if something doesn't come out right, you learn something and then you move on to the next step. So, we just kind of go like that. this is this didn't work. Let's just think about why it didn't work. And do we want to make it better for next time or are we ready to move on to the next step or to another thing?

And it's okay if it's, you know, if people are done with whatever they're doing, then that's okay. It's not a big deal. We're just gonna move and experiment. All of it, everything is an experiment. Every day, every day. Mm-hmm.

Rick Barron (52:02.758)

So being a time advocate something that is more applicable to if you have a family or if you're just a couple or even just a single person.

Julieta Duvall (52:16.654)

Yes, it's for everybody. I am definitely a time advocate. The way I like to share it is that it is for everyone. Nowadays, a lot more people are choosing not to have children. There are quite a few studies that have come out recently about how stressful it is to be a parent. 

I highly agree with that. I really think most of that has come out from the external pressures that tell us that we're supposed to do it in a certain way. And the same thing, I also see how young adults that are perhaps in their college career are going through mental breakdowns because of how the external input that their college career should be like in order for them to succeed. So, I like to say that being a time advocate for myself, my family, but also for other people is for everyone, because you don't have children means that your time is not important. And as you go through life, you, I highly recommend getting that, you know, assessing that ROI that you have on your investment on how you spend your time. 

And my biggest example too is from aviation, like over Christmas, people make the incredible amount, incredible investment in times of money, their time because they have limited time because the holiday break perhaps is just a long weekend or maybe you can add a vacation day and then they have they pay for tickets to go and to see people right but what I tell people is like if you don't make the effort to go and see your family that lives on the other side of the country throughout the year because somehow you always end up in a fight or there's like, you know, something going on there in the water. 

Why is it, why is it that you think doing it over Christmas is going to make it better? So, I don't like to fly the day after Christmas at 26 because people come to the airport, they're energetically drained. They have left everything they had, whatever they were, and they have lost time, money, energy.

Rick Barron (54:25.77)

Okay.

Julieta Duvall (54:41.182)

If they had chosen to say, for example, I don't know, I'm just going to go, I'm going to just stay home and not have to do all the obligations that people feel they should be doing. So you're advocating at that point for your sanity, for your for your mental balance, for your for your happiness. Do you need to do you really need to go to Fort Christmases? Probably not. It's hard to say no. Absolutely. It's the easiest. No.

Rick Barron (55:04.702)

Right.

Julieta Duvall (55:10.23)

But I love doing that because it is ultimately what brings you the most peace. So go to the place that brings you the most peace, that you give peace to them, that they give peace back to you. But it is hard, though, because we get into all this shits, right? And people try to make us feel guilty because we don't want to be there. We don't want to see them. But internally, like deep down, we know that you just don't like to be there.

So, it is hard to be a time advocate for yourself sometimes, but I love if you can even just think about it for a second and be aware of that. I really think it's very, very powerful how for your life as you move forward because your time is just extremely valuable. You can never get it back.

Rick Barron (55:58.554)

I know when you think about the elapsed of time that goes before your very eyes, you don't really get a grasp of where you were even a year ago versus where you are now. And it's like, well, what happened between here and there? It's, it's, it's all gone now for my wife. You know, she started these, phone meetings with her relatives during COVID. So, we kept it going during that time period.

Rick Barron (56:29.236)

But it got to a point where even after COVID was subsiding and we were kind of coming back to life, so to speak, in the world that she kept the conversations going because one of her relatives had said, are we going to have another call? And as we kept those calls going, we found that we didn't want to lose touch with one another because one person had made the thought about, you know, we just lost so and so, and it's like, gee, you know, we would just talk to them last month. 

And you realize it, as you get older, you become more sensitive to knowing someone that you knew has now left this earth. They've disappeared, so to speak. They're gone. So you need to, you know, at least for us, we love having these conversations. And my wife started a conversation with, uh, wonderful relatives in Poland. And that has really escalated now to where we've added more people. So I think, you know, to your point, you want to allocate time, but allocate time that most importantly will bring you value, make you happy, and make you more sensitized that, you know what, there's more time than you realize that you have on your hand, that you can really do something.

Julieta Duvall (57:08.695)

Yes.

Julieta Duvall (58:10.504)

Yeah, I really think it's hard and I was walking. I was leaving there for yesterday and then there was an app that said stop for nothing. I think that's what the ad said and it was about having you know headphones and I'm like no. You know it really is hard for us within a society that really calls for productivity for results and for pushing through it and all of that.

It really, it's hard to go against it. But honestly, your body half the time, that's when we see, or what I think about is when we see the autoimmune disorders, you know, like your body will tell you that it is time to stop before you really come to terms that it is time to stop. The body will say enough is enough and rest is absolutely so, crucial to have a good balance between all of it, but it really is for everyone though. I think there are times to go like super crazy on things, know, perhaps it's something that you're really excited about, but if it doesn't excite you, then I'll just take a moment to ponder and see and kind of my son would say, my oldest son, said, he said, you have to dig deeper.

Because whenever, yes, yes, whenever I'll get like a little bit like, you know, like frazzle about something, he'll say, you have to dig deeper, mommy. I say, yes, you're absolutely right. Because whatever it's coming up, it's from years past. So, I know I have to peel the layers on that onion of, I don't call it a trigger anymore. It's now, I can't even remember, but it's now just a pause.

Rick Barron (59:33.385)

Wow

Julieta Duvall (01:00:02.126)

That I know it's there for a reason because I'm about to learn something. I'm about to discover something that I went through that it no longer applies to me. And I'm like, okay, I'm growing up here and I pat myself in the back. Good job, Julietta. You did it. But my son would say, dig deeper, mommy. And then that's really what it is. If you feel it in your body that it is a no or there's some hesitation.

Julieta Duvall (01:00:28.812)

The body is there to be your, our bodies are our partners. It's there to show us something that we don't automatically always want to see. And that is so interesting. So, so interesting to listen to those cues. The body is so, so amazing, so smart and knows us so, so well. So yeah, super cool.

Rick Barron (01:00:51.602)

Wow, that's great. mean, very perceptive of your son. Wow, a little scary.

Julieta Duvall (01:00:57.038)

Yes, yes Yeah Yes, yes, because they will confront me in honestly. Yes, and I think if it was before 2020 You know, I was a type of parent like my way or the highway like, know, i'm the parent, know I'm the one that knows in reality. No, I have been on this earth longer than he has but honestly he has a lot of wisdom and Usually when he says something It's really right on point.

I mean, it's to the point where I'm like, I'm like, Anthony, do you have to be so direct? Like, is there a way that you can like cushion that for me? Because, it could be so painful to realize that there's I have more growth to go through. And he's like, know, I'm like, OK, it's OK. So, yeah, it's super fun, though. They're definitely my greatest, my greatest teachers. And I take I learned a lot from them every day, and we live life together and I'm always here to support them whether it's in this journey of unschooling or if they want to go back to school. I'm okay either way it's just about what's best for them so.

Rick Barron (01:02:07.498)

Well, time will tell and you'll know, they will know when that time arrives and it could come when you least expect it because what your oldest is 10, 11? 11. mean, before you know it, he's going to be going to college. That's a scary thought. I mean, that's how quickly time goes by here.

Julieta Duvall (01:02:22.498)

Ikki's 11, yeah. Yes. I mean, look at this year. It's already March, you know, and it feels like, I mean, it feels like it was yesterday when it was, when we were, you know, doing like Christmas stuff and all of that. So, I mean, times goes by really fast for sure. Yes.

Rick Barron (01:02:48.222)

Wow. Well, Julieta, we have covered a lot of ground here and I gotta tell you, I could keep talking with you.

Julieta Duvall (01:02:56.908)

Me too, thank you.

Rick Barron (01:02:58.29)

But if you want to leave a thought, pearls of wisdom, if you will, with people who are listening, what might that be?

Julieta Duvall (01:03:07.598)

Oh, my goodness. I'll say a few things. So first that if we leave, if we live this life to be 80 years, your days are 29,200. That's it. If you get 365 days times 80 years are 29,200 days. It's not a lot. It doesn't sound like a lot and they do go pretty fast.

So, enjoy every day to the fullest and whatever dream you have, dream big, but start small. Every step accounts towards something. It doesn't matter how farfetched you think the dream is. If you have it, if it's in your mind, and if at the end of your days, you'll be like, my goodness, I wish I would have done, I don't know, for me is going to Egypt and opening a bookshop one day.

I know that at the end of my days, I will regret if I don't go to Egypt and open a bookshop at some point in time, I will say, I wish I would have done that. So, if you think of something and you're like, I am going to regret not doing it, I think every small step that takes you to that, it's going to get you to where you want to go. Your time is so, so precious. Spend it with the people that you love and spend it in the activities that give you something back in return because you can never get it back. You can never get it back.

Rick Barron (01:04:39.339)

Beautiful thought. I really appreciate that. Well, everyone, I want to thank Julieta for taking time to have this conversation. And I call it a conversation. I don't call it a podcast interview because it's what we love to do is talk. And I hope you have taken what Julieta has shared with us and take a stab at it. I think you will find there's a lot of good and positive investment that I think you're going to get in return. So, with that, I thank you for joining our show and I look forward to talking to you in the future. Take care.